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 Playstation 2 Central Forums Main Forum 3000 word article "Sound and Vision: A Technical Overview of the Emotion Engine" (Page 1)
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| Author | Topic: 3000 word article "Sound and Vision: A Technical Overview of the Emotion Engine" - (Read Times) |
Wegabush
 Member Posts: 90 |
 posted 10-04-2000 10:58 PM    
A must read for the PS2 fanatic. http://arstechnica.com/reviews/1q00/playstation2/ee-1.html ------------------
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Soul Reaver
Posts: 787 |
posted 10-04-2000 11:03 PM 
It's too long... 
Maybe, next year. ------------------ Baseball is wrong... A man with four balls cannot walk!
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ddaryl
Posts: 1714 |
posted 10-04-2000 11:04 PM
Its a great read, I've read it about 3 or 4 times and referenced it a few more. If you want more reason to be excited there's about 4 articles about the PS2 and its components on ARStechnica
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Solid Snack
Member Posts: 78 |
posted 10-04-2000 11:07 PM Can not read, must resist anything that helps my intelligence ------------------
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Living-In-Clip
Senior Member Posts: 403 |
posted 10-04-2000 11:16 PM 
Thanks....
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Taomega
Member Posts: 117 |
posted 10-04-2000 11:26 PM
i wonder if its exactly 3000 words long. i'll check...
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neostarsX
Junior Member Posts: 46 |
posted 10-04-2000 11:50 PM
Not only does the Emotion Engine have horsepower under the hood, but its aggressively new, cutting-edge design means that it's going to take a while for developers to really learn to use all that power. It'll be interesting to see if the PC has caught up with the PS2 by the time PS2 developers figure out how to exploit this hardware to its fullest potential. All in all, it should be a fascinating ride in the next few months as MS and Nintendo begin to ready their own console offerings. The PS2 has really upped the ante in terms of raw gaming horsepower, so MS and Nintendo are going to have to offer something killer in response. (Was I the only one who was unimpressed by the recently-released X-Box specs? I hope nVidia packs some amazing hardware into it, because after looking at the Emotion Engine, a 600MHz Intel offering ain't turnin' me on...maybe if it's a Willamette...) All speculation aside though, one thing is definitely for certain. As of the Japanese launch of the Playstation 2 last month, the home entertainment scene just got much, much more exciting. YOU DAMN RIGHT ABOUT THAT THAT ARTICLE WAS AN INTERESTING READ.
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CYprEsS
Senior Member Posts: 463 |
posted 10-04-2000 11:52 PM
I concour wiht the others when I say it was a good read thanks wegabush for the interesting info ------------------ [This message has been edited by CYprEsS (edited 10-04-2000).]
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IronFist
Posts: 960 |
posted 10-05-2000 01:14 AM
I think I have read a lot of that before, but I forgot a lot of it too. Tomorrow that will be the first thing I do, but I'm going to sleep right now.
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Bobs_Hardware
Posts: 1130 |
posted 10-05-2000 02:00 AM
so basically, its saying the Emotion Engine pretty good, right? ------------------
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Nplayer-2
Member Posts: 129 |
posted 10-05-2000 02:59 AM
quote: rookie
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Dr Yassam
Member Posts: 96 |
posted 10-05-2000 05:55 AM
quote: That article was interesting many months ago, but it is rather old now (and perhaps out of date in certain ways). His conclusion confirms he views the XBox performing like an old mini-PC (with the CPU handling most of the mathematics required for graphics processing). I'm sure today he's aware that the power of the XBox comes from nVidia's GPU and NOT the main CPU itself. Also, the PS2's EE has to do far more work than the Xbox's Pentium, hence both consoles should have about the same processing power available for game code and AI (with the XBox exceeding the PS2 for physics and graphics). I think the author should write a followup article based on information he's learnt since then. Does the EE live up to his expectations? Is it as advanced as he believed? What does he think of the Xbox? etc. Now that WOULD be interesting.
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Nplayer-2
Member Posts: 129 |
posted 10-05-2000 06:03 AM
when he wrote that he and everybody already knew about the NV2A and it's specs yet he does'nt think they are hot(wonder why?) could it be that he know's MS are full of shit?? the EE has to do alot of work yes but it is so powerful and is more than able to handle everything they throw at it quote: this makes NO sense unless sony changed the EE(which they did not) how in the hell would he be dissapointed?? did'nt he just give us the review of the chip and what he thinks of it?? read the whole article.
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Nplayer-2
Member Posts: 129 |
posted 10-05-2000 06:10 AM
also DR he was talking about CPU VS CPU NOT CPU+GPU VS CPU if the off-the-shelf p3 went head to head with the EE it would get killed
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Dr Yassam
Member Posts: 96 |
posted 10-05-2000 06:41 AM
quote: BS! Even today, what do you (or anyone else here) really know about the NV2A other than the general specs and the fact that it comes from nVidia! Answer - Not much! And back in April when that article first appeared, even LESS! He also says NOTHING negative about nVidia's chipset, his comments were directed ONLY at Intel's Pentium. QUOTE "I hope nVidia packs some amazing hardware into it, because after looking at the Emotion Engine, a 600MHz Intel offering ain't turnin' me on". So, which bit of that quote did you not understand? Clearly he KNOWS a P600 (now a P733) is no match for the EE, and HOPES nVidia's GPU makes up for it (which we now know it DOES).
quote: Really? Try telling that to Kojima. Despite the great results we're seeing from MGS2, Kojima says he was expecting something MUCH more powerful from Sony given the specs. As a result, he's had to scale down many of the things he planned for MGS2 and has had to find numerous methods to overcome the PS2's deficiencies. The PS2 is a GREAT console and the EE is a very powerful processor, but it's power has been exagerated!
quote: I've read that article numerous times already! I'm not saying he WILL be disappointed, what I'm saying is that he should have a better idea of the pros and cons of the EE today. Afterall, that article isn't written from his experience of programming the EE (as Kojima's team would have), it's written strictly from a technical point of view. [This message has been edited by Dr Yassam (edited 10-05-2000).]
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Dr Yassam
Member Posts: 96 |
posted 10-05-2000 06:55 AM
quote: Yes I know, which is why I'm saying that article is not relevent when comparing PS2 to XBox.
quote: Again, I know, no doubt about it. That's the basis of his reference to Intel's processors, it has very little to do with the XBox itself as some suggest.
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Nplayer-2
Member Posts: 129 |
posted 10-05-2000 06:52 AM
quote: tell me then exactly how many changes the NV2A has gone through since it's specs were first released?? quote: find me a developer like kojima who has said that in the last month not 6-7 months ago when NOBODY knew exactly how the EE or the PS2 worked. quote: why today? the only way that would make sense is if sony changed the EE in some way which they have NOT. quote: you say that but then this to: quote: tell me then are you a PS2 programmer? if not then shut-up about how powerful it is or not HYPOCRITE
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Nplayer-2
Member Posts: 129 |
posted 10-05-2000 07:00 AM
quote: he was comparing CPU TO CPU! CPU(P3 600MHZ) VS CPU(EE) WINNER=EE CPU(P3 733MHZ) VS CPU(EE) WINNER=EE no matter what if it's a 600 or a 733 the EE is still the better and more powerfull of them all. he was'nt comparing console to console just the CPU.
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Chrono
Posts: 818 |
posted 10-05-2000 07:26 AM Compare generation 1 PSX games to Recent games like Chrono Cross and MGS... It took devolpers years to learn everthing, in the upcomming years it may be as powerfull as sony said.
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Dr Yassam
Member Posts: 96 |
posted 10-05-2000 08:04 AM
quote: Firstly, the NV2A (which has ONLY been renamed to that recently) DOES NOT EXIST YET! It will be derived from the NV25, but before that we're still waiting on nVidia's NV20. Therefore, from a technical point of view, we know VERY LITTLE about the NV2A other than the general specs given (as I've already said). Or do you have some inside information that no-one else has access to! What can you tell me about the NV2A other than the performance quoted in the XBox specs and features seen in today's NV15? quote: Hmmm, the author of that EE acticle didn't know much more than those developers (who now have practical EE programming experience), yet you accept his every word! Also, developers didn't just get there hands on the PS2 6-7 months ago! Most have had access to the PS2 developement kits since last year. Of course there are early difficulties (remember the comments from developers of Munch's Oddysee), but you cannot pretend that Kojima has suddenly tapped into previously unheard of PS2 power (his comments where made just 5 months ago). 4 months ago, he estimated that MGS2 used 50% PS2 power! quote: You missed the point completely. TODAY he should have more knowledge about the EE itself. He should have a better idea about how it works IN PRACTICE, rather than just theory. He does NOT have the definitive knowledge on the EE. Those who actually program the EE (i.e. PS2 developers) will have far more experience and knowledge. quote: And are you a PS2 programmer? Nope! In fact, neither is the author of that article on the EE, therefore I guess he should shut up also! With regards to being a hypocrite, I'm not, I just go by the facts that fanboys (like yourself?) ignore! I think the PS2 is a truely GREAT console (and have always said so), but it's not as powerful as Sony claimed it was (I've always said this also). Yes the EE is about twice as powerful as the P700, but that doesn't mean we have to pretend it MUST be the most powerful console available when the XBox and GC are released. Both these consoles will be more powerful than the PS2 when they're launched (and so they should be). Why do I say all of that? Because I'm a GAME FAN first, a system fan second! If such comments make me a hypocrite, then I suggest you look up the meaning of that word, since I always try to keep my comments consistent and I have always said the above (search ALL my posts on this PS2 forum for proof). If anyone's a hypocrite, it's you. Assuming you're the same NPlayer seen on this and other forums, tell me, which console will you be supporting next week? PS2? XBox? GC? Or do you decide depending on the mood you're in? [This message has been edited by Dr Yassam (edited 10-05-2000).]
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fastson
Too Fast For Some Posts: 282 |
posted 10-05-2000 09:11 AM
I'll print it out and then read it.. 
/Fastson
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Dr Yassam
Member Posts: 96 |
posted 10-05-2000 09:30 AM
I must remember to keep my posts short!
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SideWinder
Member Posts: 104 |
posted 10-05-2000 09:31 AM
Kudos to Dr yassam... Hmmm, you dont get many people here who can put forward a decent argument. ------------------
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Nplayer-2
Member Posts: 129 |
posted 10-05-2000 09:38 AM
quote: you said that then this> quote:
quote: he and MANY MANY other developers did'nt have the LIBRARY'S or documnet's of the PS2 to know how it worked!! that is what i'm talking about i can provided a link if you want it quote: can you point out to me place's in the article where he say's stuff like "in theory the EE does this in theory the EE does that" would you please?? this guy's know's what he is talking about! you have yet to prove he does'nt if he does'nt then tell us where in his article he is wrong about the EE?? let's see you answer that quote: you are a HYPOCRITE and i prove it, NEXT!! quote: this debate has never been about xbox vs ps2, no... it is about CPU VS CPU you just hate the fact that the EE out-performs the off-the-shelf p3 in ever way and is way more powerfull! just admit that and move on, NEXT! again how do YOU know the PS2 will not live up to what sony said? i ask again are you a PS2 developer? do you work for sony? don't say crap like that if you don't know. quote: personal insult to me? please let's be mature about this shall we? i'll be back later i'm going to sleep.
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Dr Yassam
Member Posts: 96 |
posted 10-05-2000 11:34 AM
OK. Let's split this in half! 
PART 1)
quote: Explain the joke! You're just deliberately avoiding the question because you cannot answer it, hence you know I'm right!
quote: Didn't you say "he wasn't comparing console to console just the CPU"? That article speaks about the PS2, but it's main enthasist in on the EE. Therefore in terms of the EE itself, HE DOES NOT NEED TO KNOW ANYTHING about the PS2's libraries or documentation. This is only of concern to the developers, and hence they have a greater understanding of the EE and the PS2 itself than Jon "Hannibal" Stokes (the author).
quote: Jon writes at the end of his article: "Unfortunately, none of the articles on the PS2 that I used for my research are (legally) available free of charge. I think you can get most of them via the Ask IEEE service on the web though. Speaking of docs, I want to send a big whopping thank you to all the folks who responded to my recent cry for help. I've been poring over the docs in preparation for this article, and I haven't had time to write thank-you's yet." So there you have it. As expected, his research on the PS2 and EE is BASED ON DOCUMENTED INFORMATION ALONE and NOT ON PRACTICAL EE PROGRAMMING EXPERIENCE. Therefore it's not a case of whether he's right or wrong, what I'm saying is that he has NO practical experience of the EE and therefore does not know how well it really performs in the real world or about the kind the difficulties PS2 developers are having tapping into it's power. IMO, PS2 developers are the REAL EE experts. That's why I would find it interesting for Jon to return to the EE today, since it's pros and cons should be better understood. END OF PART 1) (next one coming up! [This message has been edited by Dr Yassam (edited 10-05-2000).]
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Dr Yassam
Member Posts: 96 |
posted 10-05-2000 12:38 PM
Part 2)
quote: Just because I don't fool myself into believing that the PS2 and the EE are actually based on Alien technology discovered by Sony, doesn't make me a hypocrite Nplayer! It appears you still don't understand the meaning of the word.
quote: I know that, however 'Neostarx' quoted the part of that article which refers to the XBox, and I simply responded to it.
quote: So tell me, when I said "Yes the EE is about twice as powerful as the P700", which part of that comment did you not understand?. I have ALWAYS acknowledge the EE's power over the Pentium processor, and you can search EVERY post I've EVER made on the subject within these forums as proof. However, I've also always acknowledge that you CANNOT compare the PS2 to the XBox simply by comparing CPUs!
quote: Sony promised movie quality graphics, and that's NOT what the PS2 delivers. The graphics of the PS2 are great, and they'll get better every year, but they are NOT movie quality. And remember when you said MGS2 only used 10-15% of the PS2's power? Because I didn't want to make a big deal out of it, I proved to you using PRIVATE messages that it uses much more than that (about 50% according to Kojima http://www.gamecritics.com/interview/kojima_hideo/interview_hideo_kojima_1.html.) In otherwords, Kojima expects that (at best) it's possible to get about twice as much performance out of the PS2 as he gets from MGS2! This was ONLY between you and me. If I was as negative and resentful of the PS2 and the EE as you claim, I would NEVER have done that. I would have started a new topic and tried to use it to flame PS2 advocates! But I DIDN'T. So come on, be fair!
quote: You started it by calling me a hypocrite, I simple responded with the same accusation. So yes, let's be more mature. [This message has been edited by Dr Yassam (edited 10-05-2000).]
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Waspman
Member Posts: 229 |
posted 10-05-2000 12:59 PM
ok ok i'll give a follow up...xbox is good.......but ps2 is better.
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Dr Yassam
Member Posts: 96 |
posted 10-05-2000 01:14 PM
From some of my posts here, you'd be forgiven for thinking I would just reply "ps2 is good.......but Xbox is better".
But for me it's not as simple as that. In terms of power, the XBox is better, I have no doubt about it. However, in general terms, which is better depends on the games, and my choice of next-gen games console will be decided on the games themselves, not promises. As a result, once the XBox and GC are released, I may still find myself purchasing the PS2, despite it's faults. [This message has been edited by Dr Yassam (edited 10-05-2000).]
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Nplayer-2
Member Posts: 129 |
posted 10-05-2000 01:18 PM
quote: you first said that when he wrote that we knew LESS about the NV2A than we do today, but then you said the specs have not changed quote: well that first part of what you said theer makes no sense to me it's irrelavent(sp) i was responding to your comment about the developers you forgot about that? quote: and? so you're saying if i buy a xx product i should be able to put it together with-out the instructions?? see my point? quote: well what if he gives a review of the P4 and let's say he has never worked on it are his findings(e-i facts) BS?? als don't make me laugh the ONLY people who know how to USE the EE are the people who made it! sure developers can understand it if they have 10 years experience in super computer design quote: you have yet to prove it is NOT from aliens quote: are you talking to me? i hope not because i have'nt said the PS2 is more powerfull than the xbox just because of the CPU have i?? since i came here i have been talking about CPU VS CPU and in the end i will win quote: movei qulity as in toy story graphics! and that IS possible my friend but ONLY in a game LIKE TTT, you know 3D models with 2D backgrounds it IS possible to graphics that look that good!! but sony never said when did they? so for all you know it WILL happen. but tell me this is a yes or no answer has xbox lived up to it's HYPE?? yes or no answer. quote: you know what i found? look at this naughy dog interview in it they say they have gotten 100% of the PS2's power quote: me and you can speculate all we want(just like these developers) point is we and they don't know so i could be right you could be kojima could be jason could be right! key word is COULD that is NOT fact.
[This message has been edited by Nplayer-2 (edited 10-05-2000).]
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Nplayer-2
Member Posts: 129 |
posted 10-05-2000 01:32 PM
i'll be back in 4 hours1 so if i don't respond it's because i'm not here!! later
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akramh
Senior Member Posts: 528 |
posted 10-05-2000 01:44 PM Sorry!! a double post.. [This message has been edited by akramh (edited 10-05-2000).]
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akramh
Senior Member Posts: 528 |
posted 10-05-2000 01:58 PM quote: what a baby... we already know that NV2A or whatever the hell they call it ( mabye nv25 ) is all hype! it does not exist , so why should we give it any respect? you are now striped of your 'Dr.' under your name because of your apparent stupidity.... now u r called Baby Yassam! quote: you don't seem like you have read the article. the information is mainly based on Sony and Toshiba presentations.. you are lost baby Yassam, let the experts guide you through the next-gen-system war the inteligent way.. Also, as you don't know anything about how PS2 is being developed, let me explain a few things. the libraries released by sony to the developers are actually low-level libraries which still require the developer to work with the metal and understand how the EE is archetectured internally. and those libraries provide many ways of doing things, unlike the first libraries that were released for PSX. a lot of flexibalitiy is offered with these PS2 libraries which is good since there are so many difirent generes of games which each requiring difirent programing techniques. for example some games focus more on 3D throughput , some would have more focus on the AI and stuff like that. i beleave your ignorance on the subject is devestating... you better do some reading and thinking before making some quick stupid snappy replys..... think .. and answers will come to you eventually.. you must feel the force.. And good luck next time.. [This message has been edited by akramh (edited 10-05-2000).]
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akramh
Senior Member Posts: 528 |
posted 10-05-2000 04:31 PM it seems baby yassam has given up , and decided to retire from his post as a geek working for M$
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Dr Yassam
Member Posts: 96 |
posted 10-06-2000 04:48 AM
quote: On the contrary, some of us have responsibilities akramh. I manage a university network with 25000 users (10000 on my site)! After completing the difficult (and stressful) process of upgrading one of our main staff servers (to a Compaq server), it's great to take some time off in forums such as this. So tell me, what do you do? BTW, this IS the realworld, with different time zones, we don't all sleep at the same time! [This message has been edited by Dr Yassam (edited 10-06-2000).]
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Dr Yassam
Member Posts: 96 |
posted 10-06-2000 05:33 AM
quote: Hmmm, you call me a baby, and yet you're the ONLY person here being childish. Grow up! Yes, respect has to be earned, and to do so the NV2A will have to live up to the specs. However, given the superb results we already see TODAY with the NV15 (GeForceGTS) on the PC, there is every reason to believe that the NV25/NV2A (which is two generations later) will offer SIGNIFICANTLY better performance. quote: 'Inteligent'? Don't use words you can't understand (or even spell!! I find that article VERY interesting and VERY informative. It was the first article which really set out to explain the structure of the EE itself. However, it is NOT written from practical experience, therefore he does not know how well it really performs in realworld applications, he only knows how it performs in THEORY. This is not a criticism of Jon, my criticism are with those who use the article as the definitive word on the power of the EE, and why the PC/XBox could not compete with the PS2. As I've said before, those who actually program the PS2, i.e. those who have DIRECT experience with the EE, are the one's who have the REAL knowledge on the EE itself, and therefore their comments means far more than anything in that article.
quote: And what has this got to do with Jon's article? I'm sure very few would disagree that the best indication of the PS2's power has been demonstrated by Kojima and his team with MGS2. Right? Therefore they've managed to push the PS2 further than any other developer we've seen so far. Right? Therefore as far as I'm concerned, Kojima and his team knows FAR MORE about the EE's strengths and weaknesses than Jon Stokes. So I'll take their word over Jon ANY DAY! THAT'S the point I'm making! Feel free to disagree!
quote: Obviously you haven't read much of this topic then. You've jumped in at the end and made assumptions. Go back to the beginning, read my first posts, and point out all these so-called stupid snappy replies. [This message has been edited by Dr Yassam (edited 10-06-2000).]
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i keep on reading it to study some of the stuff they talk about.
i just find that funny for some reson
)
so tell me exactly have the specs changed since he wrote that? now do you see what's funny?